Posts by just n from bethel

27

The letter I promised earlier from the Society on Blood

by ldrnomo in

there are four different links on sendspace.com .

each link is one of the pages of the letter here are the links.

page 1 http://www.sendspace.com/file/03vk19.

just n from bethel

Thanks - not sure if you care - but your name and address can still be read despite being crossed out.

44

Christmas visit from the elders

by MrFreeze in

yes the elders made another stop to continue to try to get me back to the meetings.

my main argument with them has been the incorrect dates.

607, 1914. they said i need to stop focusing on dates.

just n from bethel

I wonder if there would be a simple way to phrase a question, one to really make them think.

What about "If 1914 were wrong, what unique evidence would we have that Jesus chose the Jehovah's Witnesses as his organization and is guiding the Watchtower from heaven as we speak?"

They may say something like, 'well the international brotherhood - our Christian Neutrality - the preaching work...'

But those answers all are things that are not exclusive to JWs.

Take for example the preaching work - JW's love to brag about numbers right? Try this on for size:

"Gideons International (also known as Gideon's Bible) is an evangelical Christian organization dedicated to distributing copies of the Bible in over 92 languages and 192 countries of the world, most famously in hotel and motel rooms. The organization was founded in 1899 in Janesville, Wisconsin, as an early American parachurch organization dedicated to Christian evangelism. It began distributing free Bibles, the work it is chiefly known for, in 1908, when the first Bibles were placed in the rooms of the Superior Hotel in Superior, Montana.

Nearly 76.9 million Gideon Scriptures were given out in 2007. Close to 1.5 billion have been distributed since 1908."

How do you like them apples, JWs? Yet these Bible distributors are part of false religion that are going to be destroyed. Yet, the ironic thing is that many JWs in countries where there are no NWT Bibles, have to use these and other protestant translations. All those Bibles that were distributed to people who were or became JWs - was Jesus using them too - to get Bibles to these JWs in other countries? But wouldn't that mean that Jesus is using that organization - that he's guiding and directing it? Wouldn't their numbers give evidence of Jesus' direction to them?

17

Need help fact checking public talk at the DC

by just n from bethel in

i have taken the time to transcribe part of the public talk given at the dc.

it was interesting because it basically said the witnesses used the bible to fortell the fall of the axis powers in wwii.

now when i first heard the speaker say it - my ears perked up.

just n from bethel

Jesus I wrote a long winded post - I definitely deserve a verbal bitch slap for my lengthy post. Sorry about that.

17

Need help fact checking public talk at the DC

by just n from bethel in

i have taken the time to transcribe part of the public talk given at the dc.

it was interesting because it basically said the witnesses used the bible to fortell the fall of the axis powers in wwii.

now when i first heard the speaker say it - my ears perked up.

just n from bethel

JYD - thanks for your well wishes and I wish you the same. I guess I'm confused though. 'cause you said you're not a Witness and never had been. But now you say JWs rammed their beliefs down your throat for 40 years??? But yet you weren't a born-in?? Sorry - I guess I'm just too simple of a man to understand how someone that was never a JW, someone who never went in service, someone who never got baptised, someone who never was forced to comment at meetings, someone who was never forced to study the WT and every meeting, someone who was not forced to forego college, someone who was not forced to give up sports and holidays as a kid, someone who was never held capitivity to unrealistic man-made congregational rules - how somebody who never went through any of the typical things JWs (especially born-ins) had forced upon them - could be more pissed off than the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) who did go through those things and have moved on to a normal life away from all things JW.

I don't know what you mean by having lost family members. Even when I was a JW, I had a huge part of my family that were never JWs. Many were even former JWs that had just left the org. We never considered them "not family" and the only way JWism interfered was with all the religous activities that took so much time. But we didn't treat non-JW family members in a way that would make anyone think we had lost one another. I'm not a rare case either, I saw this pretty much the same with a number of families in the many congregations I attended around the US. Most accepted that not all of their family would be JWs and did the best they could given the burden of bs religious activity they had taken up. But unless someone was DFd, they were never considered lost. So, if you weren't DFd how did you "lose" family members?? I apologize but I just don't get it. Feel free to explain.

On the other hand I do know many that left the org who were baptized JWs and their baptized JW family did shun them even though they were not JWs. I've also know that many baptized JWs treat non JWs as "worldly" and there is often a tendency to look down on non JWs. Of course, that's the same in the Isalm, Fundie Christianity, Mormons, and Scientology religions as well. It is an attitude, to some degree or another, part of many religious societies. It sounds like, in some way or another, that you have been a victim of that kind of derogatory and patronizing attitude. It has obviously hurt you really bad. I've helped a good friend who was raised a mormon and experienced the same kind of prejudice from her mormon family.

The thing is, I don't see how someone that wasn't raised a witness nor fell for the conversion nor married a JW, could be angrier than those that were or are in such situations. Furthermore, as hurt as you allowed yourself to be for 40 years, you would think someone like you would know the best way to reply to a JW or anyone that looks down on you, is to live a life of goodness, kindness, and to surprise them with the unexpected. And that is how most former JWs have moved on. JWs expect them to become bitter and dogmatically anti-JW, and when they don't fit that profile, their JW family and friends start to wonder - and often have a more normal conversation that may open their eyes. Also, this allows the former JW not to have to mess with the religion that wasted so much of their life - they really do move on - the absolute best resonse that can be given. I know that was one of the biggest turning points for me. I have some family that left the org in the early 70s. I watched them for years live a humble, generous, kind, educated, fiscally well off and responsible life. They never once, in all the times our family preached to them, they never once preached anti-JW stuff to the JW family members. When I finally discovered the truth about JWs - I remembered them. I then recalled several others who also lead great lives. Never appearing bitter or spewing JW hate. They had all moved on, in very good ways. Had I not known such ones, I might have thought that former JWs just turned into bitter-foaming-at-the-mouth haters.

You say I have the mentality of a JW still, and I'd like to say that it's all been left behind completely. But that just can't happen 100% when you were born and raised in. I'll be the first to tell you that I still have some personality makeovers needed. That's one of the reason I decided to post on this forum. But the irony here is that your posts exhibit more judgemental attitudes resembling JWs than most JWs I've ever known. You often direct our posts at fading JWs you think are 'weak' and 'not doing enough'. Saying there should be pages and pages of praise for stories of anyone that jumps down a JWs throat. Since you never were a JW - one of the things you missed out on was the 'not doing enough' talks. Yep, at the meetings JWs rarely talk about the King of the North anymore, rather they talk about 'not being weak-minded' and 'preaching WT doctrine with vigor - with all your might' Yep, it's constantly being thrown at you, week after week.

Imagine a fading JW coming here though, glad to finally just be getting away from all that for the first time, and what do they see - why it's JYD's post to them - criticizing them for being weak - for not doing enough - being just a 'token X-JW'. Wow - what a surprise to leave the meetings and come here and hear the same thing only in the opposite direction. You say you were never a JW, and yet claim that I still have the mentality - but your posts and actions show it's the other way around. Take a look in the mirror buddy. Seriously, what you hate about the JWs - you're slowly becoming.

As for me, I pretty much just stopped going. My fade turned into a full blown shave. I won't be going back, I'll being going forward. I won't be judging how much others do or don't do anymore. If their method of leaving was different than mine, perhaps slower, perhaps even requiring them to stay an elder, so be it - I'm done judging. I'm not going to come on here like a JW wanna-be and tell them they're doing it wrong. I'm not going to tell them they need to preach an anti-JW message at every chance they get. That they should seek out formal and informal opportunities to Anti-witness. That part of my life is over. That part of my life was defined as a JW - but now, coming here, I realize that there are still a lot of people that like to preach and tell others what to do and judge them if it's not to their liking. You seem to fit that bill. No straw man here, despite your claims. But do as you wish, and while I can't imagine any real former JW wanting to listen to you tell them they're not doing enough like your their new GB, I hope you find joy in looking down on them. I guess, in whatever it is you do, do it well.

17

Need help fact checking public talk at the DC

by just n from bethel in

i have taken the time to transcribe part of the public talk given at the dc.

it was interesting because it basically said the witnesses used the bible to fortell the fall of the axis powers in wwii.

now when i first heard the speaker say it - my ears perked up.

just n from bethel

Yeah, JYD, I remember studying all the history of the king of the north etc. They certainly did spew a lot of nonsense that never came true. Having been raised a JW and pushed to go on to be a bethelite and elder as a 4th generation witness on both sides of my parents - studying up on WT/JW org history seemed semi-normal for me as a kid. Of course I always thought conventions were boring, but as a kid, you don't know any better. When I went to what was probably my last convention (I had already stopped believing due to my own research without any help from those whose lives revolve around spreading anti-JW messages, perhaps like JYD), this point really stood out because it smelled like BS. I brought it up to my believing family members. I went to the chairman's office to talk about it. The re-writing of history became very apparent. I had also heard similar JW history re-writes at the last convention regarding the UN predictions. Anyway - while it was boring - anyone that studied WT history using only WT publications and no so-called apostate material, could easily discover this thought maniupulation by listening at a convention.

So yes, the convention, just like every other one, was quite the bore session, but it sealed in my mind with finality that the org is full of crap. But - to reiterate - when you're born and raised in the org, you're taught that studying org history (among other JW things) is a way of life. Boring - yes - but it's all you know.

Now - one thing that has never interested me, and still doesn't - is the history of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Neither does the hiostory of L. Ron Hubbard. You know why? Because I was never a mormon nor a scientologist. I have friends and family that are mormons, and I still find it boring. I have one relative that's an ex-mormon. While she certainly knows a lot of her orgs history and crazy re-writes and lies, she would think I was out of my mind if I spent any time pouring over all their history. I'd have to be absolutely nuts if I went around to internet boards and told the mormons how wacked they were and how fading mormons should grow a pair and tell off their elders and family members. That whenever they see two guys on bikes in their neighborhood they should run them down and pin them into an argument that would make them leave with their tail between their legs.

Then when some fading mormon asks me if I understand what it's like to have grown up a mormon and have all their friends and family - I tell them 'No! I've never been a mormon nor have I ever gone on a mission - I just think faders are pussies. I've studied all up on your religioin and its bs, and you say you know it's bs. I'm not in your shoes, but I found becoming an expert in your church's history an exciting hobby - mainly because I like to antagonize anyone that believes that bs.'

So, JYD, I'm glad you've decided to study up on a religion you were never a part of. And indeed you are right, conventions are boring. Had I not been raised or converted to a JW, I would've found the whole idea spending any of my time studying JWs history as wasteful as if I would study Mormons or Scientologists. Why somebody would study all the historical details of a religion/cult that they were never a part nor never believed, is beyond me. I suppose some like to study religions for sociiology religions if they have a hobby or profession in that field. However, those folks usually don't peruse internet boards and tell faders that they're weak. They don't need to have an agenda because they respect the fact that people can use their minds and thinking abilities to believe the free speech that comes forth from any religion. The facts speak for themselves. Once you know the facts how you act on those is a personal decision based on ones own unique circumstances of actually being in the religion. Something you could never understand.

Nonetheless, thanks for your input on my former religion's history - Indeed it confirms what I found out without any help from anti-JW campaigners. Yep - I did it all on my own. No picketers did anything for me except reinforce the JW persecution complex (more often than not they reinforced the crazy/bitter/never-will-get-a-life idea). Nobody ran me down in the ministry to argue me down. No "anti-JW" internet comments made me think. It was all my own conclusions from basic secular education, watchtower publications, and the bible. But hey - I'm glad you're so interested in the history of a religion.cult that you have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a part of. And despite all your knowledge of the history of the org, you'll just never really understand another person that was actually part of it.

But keep posting if it makes you happy. Keep calling faders spineless if that gets you off. Just do some a favor, and let them know that you were never a JW nor have you been in their shoes - so you really don't have a clue on how you would react if you were. It's a good reminder that even a few non-JWs can get wrapped up in studying boring theological details of two century old adventist spin-offs. Not sure how that even works - but if you could, please let them know there are a lot more interesting things to spend time on if you're not a JW, nor ever have been. Please tell them that just because you don't have a life and the JWs still somehow consumed your time despite never having been one - please tell them that it doesn't have to be that way when they've finally moved on. Please tell them that not only will they not have to go to boring conventions but they won't have to come to any ex-religion board and spend any more of their precious time on non-sensical religious discussions. Much less that there is no reason they'll have to go to any ex-religion board and tell former constituents how to behave. Yeah- you got caught up in it, even though you weren't ever a JW, but it's good to remind others that you're just really an outlier - one that got sucked in to spending time on something that most here were forced to be a part of. Somehow you've done that by choice, and yet still can't relate to others here. Yep - we know you're way way out there, and have chosen a boring religion to become fascinated with - but, we promise. It can get better. Just let it go, man, just let it go. It can be done. millions of former JWs have faded away from the religion only to live a life that says more than anyone could on an internet forum. That life, they live speaks volumes. I hope you can follow all those spineless faders and get a life yourself.

65

I find it very hard to believe in a god

by Newborn in

jw
friends

but i find it equally hard to believe in the evolution theory .

so for now, i chose not to believe in anything but myself and love.

that was all.

just n from bethel

I see God everywhere. His existence makes perfect sense to me.

I'm sure it made perfect sense to the holocaust victims and the Rawanda genocides victims as well. Did you see God in those places as well?

Many that believe in evolution could care less about Dawkins. Many biologists, doctors, and geneticists that created medicine and technology to help your friends and family, rely on evolution to discover ways to help the ill and infirm. So, I don't think those holes are as big as you think they are. And the bottom line - even if there are some so-called holes - no evidence exists whatsoever that says the god of the bible is the answer to those wholes. If you have such evidence, please post it and lets then submit such evidence to the nobel committee - because you'll surely win the prize.

44

Christmas visit from the elders

by MrFreeze in

yes the elders made another stop to continue to try to get me back to the meetings.

my main argument with them has been the incorrect dates.

607, 1914. they said i need to stop focusing on dates.

just n from bethel

JYD - Nobody thinks that Freeze didn't handle himself well. He did. It was nice that he shared it. Gives everyone here, one of MANY ways in which they might handle themselves depending on their own unique situation.

But that was not the point of your post I was referring to. I just called you out on your little attempt to put yourself up on a pedestal, claiming anybody here that doesn't go around like you seeking to have it out with JWs are just 'whiners' and not 'stand-upish'. I'll even go as far and say that it's true - with the thousands of registered posters here, there might be a couple or so that need to man up a little more. But lumping every fader in that category is one of the most idiotic posts that I've ever seen on this board. The fact is, most former JWs move on. Look at all the members here that are registered and never post. They've gotten on with their life. Some faded over a period of time. Others did so more quickly. Their life, most of the time, has nothing to do with seeking out JWs and proving them wrong. You say there should be pages and pages of praise for one ex-JW that made a nice defense. Well, if that's so - you should write pages and pages of praise for all the faded JWs that never post here anymore and have moved on with their life - a far more powerful testimony to JWs than seeking them out to pounce on when they're in their ministry. (Because according to you, anybody not willing to do that is just powerless weakling.)

You see, one thing for sure I know about 99% of the registered posters here, is that if they were never a JW (nor married to one) to begin with, they wouldn't waste time here - and even if they somehow came upon this site and found it interesting, they sure wouldn't criticize people for fading in their own way. After all they were never in any of these folks shoes - because they were never a JW (nor married to one). That is what you just admitted. So you weren't a JW, you never knocked on doors to tell others their beliefs, liefstyles, and way of thinking was wrong. Yet you come here and tell ex-JWs how they should proceed. What a wasteful life you have. It's even worse than somebody like Danny Haszard - at least he has a semi-excuse. It makes you look like you were jealous of never being a JW - like you wished you could've gone around and told people how to live their lives. You didn't get that chance as a JW, so you come here. Wow. You have truly given purposeless boredom a new meaning.

That would be like me going on to an ex-mormon board or ex-scientolgy board and telling them how to behave with their former friends and family. Completely and utterly pointless. So while I can never understand how bored one must be to come here though never a JW himself, I'm glad you made it clear that you have never been in anyone's shoes here. That way when you bitch and moan that faders aren't pissed off or bitter enough to be as tough as you think you would have been - they know that in all likelihood, you're just talking out of your ass. So for that - we thank you.

16

I just cringe when reading sillyness like this

by therevealer in

it is from a yahoo e-mail group.. .

is anyone aware of a talk that explains the principle regarding disfellowshipping?

i need to explain to my adult children why i can't attend their sister's wedding.. .

just n from bethel

revealer - I'm familiar with the Yahoo group. They often ask for those recorded talks.

Here's an interesting response you might want to make. Respond that the talk "Be an encouragement to the brothers" by GB member Dan Sydlik has an interesting point regarding disfellowshipped ones. He says to 'even be encouraging to disfellowshipped ones.'

I kid you not, he said that in a talk that's up on that website where everyone can download the talks.

You won't find it in a Watchtower, but it comes from the mouth of the F&DS.

I'll see if I can find it - it probably should be posted here.

44

Christmas visit from the elders

by MrFreeze in

yes the elders made another stop to continue to try to get me back to the meetings.

my main argument with them has been the incorrect dates.

607, 1914. they said i need to stop focusing on dates.

just n from bethel

Good Job Freeze. But pay no attention to JYD. Follow his advice and you end up like Danny Hazsard - a guy that could never move on in life and will likely grow into a bitter old man full of regret. JYD will never have an identity that's not related to being or having been a JW. That will be his enitre life. He rarely finds an opportunity to say more than two words to JWs because he represents the freak that every JW is warned they'll turn into if they leave the org. Thus, even they realize he's a waste of time. So instead he comes here on your thread so he can find others to criticize. As a JW he went around telling everybody what they believed was wrong and stupid. He obviously loved doing that becuase he still wants to come here and do that. It's evident that he has a "small-man" complex and needs to compensate for something.

30

Latest research findings: The more believers doubt their own beliefs, the more they proselytize in favor of them .

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

on december 10, 2010, appearing in our local newspaper was an article titled, social science palooza, written by columnist, david brooks.

"every day, hundreds of thousands of scholars study human behavior.

every day, a few of their studies are bundled and distributed via e-mail by kevin lewis, who covers the social sciences for the boston globe and national affairs.

just n from bethel

Like the quote from Orwell shows above - this problem goes well beyond JWs. I find it interesting, even on this forum, that people latch on to their beliefs no matter how many hard facts show their beliefs may not be so certain. I wonder if that's just a trait that is carried over from being a JW.

Despite all the nutty beliefs of JWs - the main downside is the shunning policy and the blood doctrine after that. You take away those two things and you have, more or less, just another religous belief system. I mean without the DFing - then you can take blood, disagree with doctrine somewhat openly, and hold ideas that are not endorsed by official JW doctrine if you so desire.

In the book "Mistakes were Made (but not by me)" by Carol Tavris - it spends some time emphasizing this idea by focusing on the many false accusations of child abuse were that propping up in the 80s and 90s. Many child psychologists would back a claim of child abuse, only to later find indisputable evidence that such abuse never happened. However, instead of retracting their testimony, they often defended their position even more so. Rarely did any of them admit their error and faulty thinking, despite that their support of false claims put many innocent people in jail. It really is a great book - and it backs the idea Barbara is making in the OP.